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Post by CSCommish on Jul 31, 2018 21:03:13 GMT -5
So yea the wheel is popular at the moment. How about a modified lottery system?
The idea I came up with is that we stick with the status quo, but whenever a team fails to win 50 games (this is right about the average worst season for each team for the past 29 seasons), only then does it trigger a lottery.
And the lottery would involve the bottom 4 (or so) teams. If more teams tank hard under 50 wins, more teams are involved in the lottery (expands to 6 or 8 or so teams). The lottery teams would have generally unweighted values except those teams under 50 wins whose values will decrease depending on how many wins under 50 they are. We can certainly keep it unweighted, provide a max number of picks a pick can slide, etc.
In seasons in which all teams win at least 50, then there is no lottery.
This forces a team to at least field a respectable team while still "tanking". I'm not opposed to teams doing a hard rebuild (losing 100 games) but failing to win 40 games is pretty bad. It effects the other teams in the league, inflating win values of other teams in the division (also affecting wild card).
Thoughts?
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RoyalsGM
General Manager 
Kansas City Royals
Posts: 4,600 
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Post by RoyalsGM on Jul 31, 2018 21:13:43 GMT -5
Is the distance between the #1 draft pick and the #4 pick really so great for this lottery to have any effect? If you are going to have a lottery, make the size of it a large enough disincentive to tank. I don't think risking a move back to the 4th pick would be enough to prevent me from tanking...
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Reddington
General Manager
Atlanta Braves
Posts: 17,872
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Post by Reddington on Jul 31, 2018 21:16:55 GMT -5
I'd say 60 wins and each win under 60 adds another team to the lottery, so only win 34 games all teams are in the lottery  |
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Post by CSCommish on Jul 31, 2018 21:32:13 GMT -5
Is the distance between the #1 draft pick and the #4 pick really so great for this lottery to have any effect? If you are going to have a lottery, make the size of it a large enough disincentive to tank. I don't think risking a move back to the 4th pick would be enough to prevent me from tanking... Good point. Maybe top 8 or 10? |
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dougiejays
General Manager
Toronto Blue Jays
Posts: 4,357
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Post by dougiejays on Jul 31, 2018 22:13:48 GMT -5
These strategies are all good for a straight-up league, but with all the extras in this league it seems like there are lots of ways to penalize teams.
1) teams under 40 wins get no reversals for a year
2) teams are fined 50 pts for <40 wins, 30 pts for <50, and so on
3) teams are fined $1M for each win under 50, $2M under 40, etc
I’m fine with a lottery but I don’t like the ideas that include different results for number of teams, etc, each year. Just set up a basic lottery or don’t.
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bub6708
Other 
Tampa Bay Devil Rays
Posts: 998
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Post by bub6708 on Jul 31, 2018 22:32:29 GMT -5
These strategies are all good for a straight-up league, but with all the extras in this league it seems like there are lots of ways to penalize teams. 1) teams under 40 wins get no reversals for a year 2) teams are fined 50 pts for <40 wins, 30 pts for <50, and so on 3) teams are fined $1M for each win under 50, $2M under 40, etc I’m fine with a lottery but I don’t like the ideas that include different results for number of teams, etc, each year. Just set up a basic lottery or don’t.
This is a solid idea. Do you think the point amount would be enough to make losing that many games not worth it?
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Spencer
General Manager
Posts: 5,928
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Post by Spencer on Jul 31, 2018 22:57:38 GMT -5
Ill be honest. Im pretty anti anything different considering the leagues history
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Post by Boston Red Sox on Jul 31, 2018 23:14:16 GMT -5
This league already doesn't guarantee you get the top pick in a draft with FPR. This is unnecessary and teams who have been following the rules will suffer from it.
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Post by Boston Red Sox on Jul 31, 2018 23:17:39 GMT -5
A lack of depth in the league is also a huge cause for the teams not being able to field good teams while losing. There are 4 teams right now under .300 win percentage.
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Spencer
General Manager
Posts: 5,928
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Post by Spencer on Jul 31, 2018 23:30:06 GMT -5
This league is pretty great. Its probably the best baseball sim ive been in overall. I think were kinda blowing this up. I have no problem with tanking as long as youre playing your best possible players.
My issue here has always been the same. I feel like a handful of guys dont really wanna interact. It limits trading.
Other then that its pretty perfect.
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Reddington
General Manager
Atlanta Braves
Posts: 17,872
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Post by Reddington on Aug 1, 2018 8:07:08 GMT -5
no points for making playoffs
100 points for 90 wins + 7 FA (max of 90) and missing playoffs
50 points for 82 wins + 5 FA (max of 90)
25 points for 75 wins -- just to motivate those that are close not to tank the final couple weeks
a team with < 55 wins triggers lottery of the lowest 6 teams, but positions 23,24,25 get two draws in the lottery making it a 1-9 chance the tanker gets the number 1 pick
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Reddington
General Manager
Atlanta Braves
Posts: 17,872
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Post by Reddington on Aug 1, 2018 10:53:02 GMT -5
If I tank for 1 or 2 seasons not 7 like some and lose the first pick. I'll be pissed. I've literally watched teams just play guys with poor ratings on purpose and nothing be done. So the fact that I'm trying to actually rebuild now and this comes up.... I don't like it. no way that this could or should be implemented this off season as people would need to know they need to show up for the season. No if penalties were to be put in place based on roster management... that would be one thing. IE you have a 3 star (non blue star) in the minors yet you are playing 1/2 stars in the majors type thing |
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bub6708
Other
Tampa Bay Devil Rays
Posts: 998
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Post by bub6708 on Aug 1, 2018 14:27:25 GMT -5
no way that this could or should be implemented this off season as people would need to know they need to show up for the season. No if penalties were to be put in place based on roster management... that would be one thing. IE you have a 3 star (non blue star) in the minors yet you are playing 1/2 stars in the majors type thing
Agreed. This is a discussion of ideas, but nothing will likely be done this year.
That could be interesting, are there rules on the books about competitive team requirements?
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stooolfan
General Manager
St Louis Cardinals
Posts: 7,286
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Post by stooolfan on Aug 1, 2018 15:06:48 GMT -5
I mean, Ive been tanking. I sold all my players for pennies cause trading in this league is a chore....I was flabbergasted how that squad to play so bad....If you implement tanking rules the gap will just become larger between top teams and lower teams.
The reservation system also helps teams with a better historical past. For example, who the fuck can the pirates reserve when other teams have legends across the entire lifespan of their team.
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Post by CSCommish on Aug 1, 2018 17:28:37 GMT -5
Copying it here: My two cents...I am not that concerned about tanking and I think it is a legitimate practice. As a Royals fan IRL, I would have gladly taken the Marlins model with a championship every 6 years with bad teams in between. If we do make a change, I vote for a lottery. Curious though, do you think we are conflating "tanking" with "rebuilding"? How do you define it? Tanking, like dougie mentioned, is intentionally putting the worst team out there, whereas a hard rebuild is trading away good veteran pieces, fielding a "meh" team with some young guys and some journeymen who fill out the roster. Regarding the Marlins model, the firesale after the 1997 WS resulting in their worst season ever at .333 winning pct, which was 54 wins. They did it again after the 2003 WS and slowly got down to 71 wins in 2007 and competed a little bit in 2009 and rebuilt again, with only 62 wins in 2013. They are bad this season but are on pace for 68 wins. I think there's a big difference between 54 wins and under 40 wins. There's just something wrong there when it impacts the wild card race fairly significantly. And if anything is done, it will be introduced slowly and/or not for a while. |
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bub6708
Other
Tampa Bay Devil Rays
Posts: 998
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Post by bub6708 on Aug 1, 2018 19:15:50 GMT -5
Curious though, do you think we are conflating "tanking" with "rebuilding"? How do you define it? Tanking, like dougie mentioned, is intentionally putting the worst team out there, whereas a hard rebuild is trading away good veteran pieces, fielding a "meh" team with some young guys and some journeymen who fill out the roster.
This.
I feel like a lot of people are confusing a rebuild with outright tanking.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 20:35:33 GMT -5
I guess I don't pay attention to anyone else's roster. Are teams intentionally not starting their best available players? I'm in a rebuild but I still start my best and I spent money to put together a respectable bullpen (most of which I'll try to trade after June 1)
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dougiejays
General Manager
Toronto Blue Jays
Posts: 4,357
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Post by dougiejays on Aug 1, 2018 20:39:20 GMT -5
I guess I don't pay attention to anyone else's roster. Are teams intentionally not starting their best available players? I'm in a rebuild but I still start my best and I spent money to put together a respectable bullpen (most of which I'll try to trade after June 1) No idea about this league, but in HFTC I lost the first overall pick once because I did an intense rebuild but another owner (who basically dominated the league every year except for that one) demoted his stud ROY to AAA for his sophomore season. |
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bub6708
Other
Tampa Bay Devil Rays
Posts: 998
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Post by bub6708 on Aug 1, 2018 21:21:39 GMT -5
I still think we should consider Dougies idea of no reversals, losing points, and fining cash for teams under a certain amount of wins. That combined with a lottery.
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Post by CSCommish on Aug 1, 2018 21:37:18 GMT -5
A lack of depth in the league is also a huge cause for the teams not being able to field good teams while losing. There are 4 teams right now under .300 win percentage. That's not a good reason. There's plenty of depth, just not being utilized. I looked at the Red Sox and there's at least 3-4 players who do not belong in majors that could easily replaced with a replacement-level free agent without disrupting your talent in AAA. I looked at the Reds and they are starting Hilgendorf meanwhile Barrios is at 7 AR, 28 years old, sitting there. I looked at the Pirates and well...no signings in FA, so of course there's no depth. I've come to the realization that I may have to force replacement-level signings so that the sub-.300 teams DO have depth WITHOUT disrupting the intent to rebuild. |
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Post by Boston Red Sox on Aug 1, 2018 22:06:34 GMT -5
A lack of depth in the league is also a huge cause for the teams not being able to field good teams while losing. There are 4 teams right now under .300 win percentage. That's not a good reason. There's plenty of depth, just not being utilized. I looked at the Red Sox and there's at least 3-4 players who do not belong in majors that could easily replaced with a replacement-level free agent without disrupting your talent in AAA. I looked at the Reds and they are starting Hilgendorf meanwhile Barrios is at 7 AR, 28 years old, sitting there. I looked at the Pirates and well...no signings in FA, so of course there's no depth. I've come to the realization that I may have to force replacement-level signings so that the sub-.300 teams DO have depth WITHOUT disrupting the intent to rebuild. I don't have money to sign people. |
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Post by tadontask on Aug 1, 2018 22:08:20 GMT -5
Curious though, do you think we are conflating "tanking" with "rebuilding"? How do you define it? Tanking, like dougie mentioned, is intentionally putting the worst team out there, whereas a hard rebuild is trading away good veteran pieces, fielding a "meh" team with some young guys and some journeymen who fill out the roster. I think rebuilding is a type of light tanking. You're selling off assets, knowing that it is going to make your team weaker, but with the hope that you can get some good prospects and draft picks to improve your outlook. What the Blue Jays described is an extreme form of tanking, and one that I agree should not be allowed. If I move Mike Schmidt to #5 starter and bench Alan Trammell for a 33-year old single-A guy with a 1-star rating. Yeah, I should be asked to fix that immediately or risk being replace. I honestly don't pay enough attention to the other 25 teams to know if this takes place, but I can't imagine it does here with the veteran owners who would notice this happening. |
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Post by Boston Red Sox on Aug 1, 2018 22:08:37 GMT -5
My rebuild is going just fine I've only been losing 3 years and I'm about to start putting my prospects on the mlb field.
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Spencer
General Manager
Posts: 5,928
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Post by Spencer on Aug 1, 2018 22:15:13 GMT -5
A lack of depth in the league is also a huge cause for the teams not being able to field good teams while losing. There are 4 teams right now under .300 win percentage. That's not a good reason. There's plenty of depth, just not being utilized. I looked at the Red Sox and there's at least 3-4 players who do not belong in majors that could easily replaced with a replacement-level free agent without disrupting your talent in AAA. I looked at the Reds and they are starting Hilgendorf meanwhile Barrios is at 7 AR, 28 years old, sitting there. I looked at the Pirates and well...no signings in FA, so of course there's no depth. I've come to the realization that I may have to force replacement-level signings so that the sub-.300 teams DO have depth WITHOUT disrupting the intent to rebuild. Make people sign FAs. |
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Post by Boston Red Sox on Aug 1, 2018 22:17:30 GMT -5
That's not a good reason. There's plenty of depth, just not being utilized. I looked at the Red Sox and there's at least 3-4 players who do not belong in majors that could easily replaced with a replacement-level free agent without disrupting your talent in AAA. I looked at the Reds and they are starting Hilgendorf meanwhile Barrios is at 7 AR, 28 years old, sitting there. I looked at the Pirates and well...no signings in FA, so of course there's no depth. I've come to the realization that I may have to force replacement-level signings so that the sub-.300 teams DO have depth WITHOUT disrupting the intent to rebuild. Make people sign FAs. I'd never make a GM sign a player unless it was an extreme case where they don't even have a minor league player at the position or something. I allocate my money into points when I'm not going for it that year. |
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